Tuesday, April 25, 2006

Standing on the Shoulders of Marvels

Candy Cummings pitched for five different teams in his six year baseball career. He led the league in shutouts in 1872 and 1875 and took the strikeout crown in '72 when he whiffed fourteen batters all season. His success was based largely on his ability to throw a curveball, something no other pitcher at the time could do. Cummings learned as a boy how to make clam shells follow a curving path when he threw them and applied the same principles to the baseball, spinning it as it left his fingertips and making it practically unhittable to batters of his era.

In 1939, he was inducted to the Baseball Hall of Fame as an pioneer of the game for his invention of the pitch that would be the predecessor to all breaking pitches.

If you were managing game seven of the World Series and could have any pitcher in the history of professional baseball on the mound, who would you want it to be? Whitey Ford? Tom Glavine? Sandy Koufax? Roger Clemens? Bob Gibson?

The obvious choice must be Candy Cummings, right? After all, if he hadn't invented the curveball, the rest of those guys would suck. He must be the best of all time and no one else could be considered superior since they used his own invention to exceed him, thereby negating their accomplishments.

The above argument makes little--if any--sense. Negating the accomplishments of some because they used the accomplishments of others as a leaping off point would discount nearly every one of mankind's highlights. Should every scientist that learned anything by looking through a microscope take a seat behind Hans Janssen since he invented the microscope? In turn, is the value of a microscope diminished by virtue of the fact someone else invented the convex lens?

Of course not. In fact, anyone who thinks George Mikan in his prime would average more than three points a game in today's NBA or believes "I Love Lucy" would last past midseason on today's networks is in denial.

Which brings me to Jack Kirby and Stan Lee.

I don't mean to single out any one person, as this is a commonly held feeling among some, but as part of the fifteen comics meme, Sean Kleefeld named Fantastic Four as his #1 comic and put his dream team of Stan and Jack aboard as creators. Let me stress, I'm not saying he's wrong, but just that I can't understand that choice at all (and if Sean's reading, I hope he'll post some kind of counterpoint reply to help me understand).

As I trudge through the first Essential Fantastic Four volume, I am struck by how terrible it all is. I understand it was a different time and it's a kids' book and it was surprisingly different than whatever else was out there, but none of that makes it "good." It has the stupidity of Jimmy Olsen, but with an added bombastic delivery that feels like its all taking itself far too seriously. Ten issues in, I can say there is nothing fun nor whimsical about this comic.

I will give Jack and Stan credit for being innovators without any question, but to say Jack Kirby is a better artist than Brian Hitch or than Stan Lee is a better writer than Peter David gives a little too much credit to nostalgia and not enough to the actual product of any of the men involved.

The fact is Brian Hitch--and most other artists today--are Kirby's superior because of Kirby himself. Kirby made considerable contributions to the art of sequential story telling. By experimenting with perspectives and layouts, he was able to give examples of what worked and what didn't, freeing up future artists from having to learn by conducting the same experiments. Likewise, as other artists took the lessons they learned from Kirby's work and conducted their own experiments, the lessons they learned were passed down, and so on. Each generation was able to build on the previous.

Thus, someone like Hitch or Lee Bermejo or Steve Epting or Mark Bagley represents the culmination of the works of Kirby, Ditko, Kubert, Eisner, Simonson, Perez, and so many others. Each creator has his own style, but a learned artist should easily exceed someone four decades his predecessor.

Unfortunately, there is an instict to cling to the past and point to innovations as summits rather than simply peaks along the escalation. How else do you explain people my age and younger paying good money to go see the Rolling Stones in concert? The idea that this was the pinacle of comic art:... or that every writer's dialogue following that was a step down in quality is laughable at best and insulting at worst.

By all means, give Kirby and Lee the credit they deserve as creators, as innovators, as the foundations upon which Marvel Comics is built, but don't delude yourself into thinking a product either produced today would be anything but a major disappointment. When it comes right down to it, Kirby could never draw a person's head the same proportion twice and Stan's characters were so one dimensional, he once resorted to having Mr. Fantastic break the fourth wall and threaten readers who didn't think Sue Storm contributed anything to the book (which she didn't).

20 Comments:

Blogger Grotesqueticle said...

I am as huge a Kirby fan as you'll ever know. And I agree with you. Great point, great post. I'll tell you this; Nothing could prepare you for the initial Galactus/Silver Surfer run. That (at the time) was just freaking awesome.

Game 7 of the World Series? I'd want the best pitcher in the post-season ever. John Smoltz.

4:12 AM  
Blogger plok said...

Ooooh, you're gonna get so flamed! Not by me (though I disagree with you), but by somebody.

They say if Maurice Richard were playing in today's NHL, he'd score a hundred goals in a season. But my question is this:

Would anyone really want to read Brian Hitch's Kamandi instead of Jack Kirby's? Because to me, that's madness.

4:53 AM  
Blogger CalvinPitt said...

Is this part of your "Stan Lee and jack kirby are overrated hacks" week?

I'm in agreement with the "building on your predecessors". When I look back at a lot of my dad's comics from the sixties, the art doesn not terribly impress (except for Sgt. Rock). But like you said, artists of today have the artists of then to use as inspiration.

Oh yeah. Everyone knows with game 7, you give the ball to Bob Gibson. End of discussion.

8:31 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

* This isn't Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are overrated hacks week, but it is the beginning of a "Fantastic Four is an overrated book" theme that will pop up. My motivation comes largely from realizing I've already written a bunch about Superman and have enough Superman related material to fill the next year, but want to diversify. (That said, I need to do that whole story around that panel of Superman with the lynx on his head.)

* I considered Smoltz for that list, but it's a little too long already.

* I'd buy Richard could play today and be dominant. The same goes for Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson, though Wilt would never average 50 points a game and Big O couldn't average a triple double for the season.

In his autobiography, Christy Mathewson wrote that major league pitchers needed endurance and should be prepared to throw "up to 80 or 90 pitches to complete a game." Today 80 or 90 pitches gets you to the fifth inning.

In addition to changes in the games, the difference maker is the talent levels of the second and third string guys around them. If you take the tenth man on the average NBA bench and transported him to 1966, he'd be an MVP candidate. So while Richard would still be at the same level, he wouldn't score as many goals against some of the more mediocre players. I think he'd be a star, and in the right system he might get 100 goals, but I can't think of a team with that system in place.

* I can't speak to Kamandi. Obviously, it gets all sorts of praise, but it never held any appeal for me. The same goes for the Fourth World stuff. When I was younger, I had no interest because it didn't tie into the regular DC Universe or continuity and the art didn't appeal to me, so I never bothered to learn anything about it. Now, it's one of those things like these Fantastic Four that I always wondered about the appeal of, but couldn't afford to buy a collection of just to find out. I guess what I'm saying is if I can get a New Gods or Kamandi Showcase for five bucks like I did with these Essentials, I'd do it.

* Yes, the answer is obviously Bob Gibson.

9:29 AM  
Blogger Chris said...

I agree with everything here (as we've discussed many a time), and it should be painfully obvious to anyone who's picked up an Essential Vol. 1 of....really, darn near anything. Beyond nostalgia and genuine appreciation for art/comics history, the Volume 1s are almost unreadable across the board.

Also, have you seen Tom Scioli's art on Godland? It's Kirby-esque, but I think the fact that it's so obviously a homage exempts it from any critical appreciation. Thoughts?

I'd also love to see some opposing viewpoints.

Oh, and Gibson is a no-brainer. Simple.

2:42 PM  
Blogger plok said...

Yeah, I think that Scioli's Godland work is definitely homage, but it isn't just homage, in my opinion -- it's also the thing itself. Because riffing on Kirbyisms is very common, but in Godland one gets the sense that it's more than riffing for metatextual purposes, it's also saying "okay, suppose this is a style -- what can it do? Let's try it." And the results seem pretty energized, to me, because I feel like Scioli's playing it straight.

We've had Kirby clones and Kirby samplers, but 'til now have we had someone who's interested in employing the visual vocabulary that Kirby pioneered, and who's interested in trying it out for himself?

Just a thought.

5:50 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Good points, Plok. And offhand I can't think of anyone working in big comics today that's done what Scioli's doing.

But I think the point that Jake's trying to make is akin to saying that just because some caveman invented the wheel that doesn't mean that modern man didn't do more interesting things with it, and nobody's going around saying, "Yeah, the 22-inch rims are cool and all, but check out the original vaguely round rough-hewn rock stuff if you're REALLY into wheels."

(Jake, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.)

And for the record, I really dig Scioli's art matched with Casey's story.

Has Scioli always drawn like this, or was this a first-time thing for the Kirby stuff?

8:17 PM  
Anonymous Christopher said...

I can't speak for Lee, but I will defend Kirby to the grave. To the grave I say!

Actually, Kirby's Fourth World stuff has been out in really cheap black and white paperbacks for several years now. That's how I first read it.

I have to say, to me, Kirby's Fourth World is the best straight superhero stuff of all time.

What I mean by straight is not being a Watchmen-style deconstructionist take, or a Supreme-style nostalgia fest, or anything like that. There's lots of revisionist stuff that's outpaced it.

But when it comes to straight stories of super-tough guys beating each other up, The Fourth World is tops.

And it's already out in cheap editions; All the Fourth World collections are less then $10.00 at amazon.

1:51 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

I shall seek these Fourth World books out before I pass judgment then.

1:53 AM  
Blogger Greg said...

Last year when I ripped into the Batman Chronicles (the first several Detective/Batman comics in chronological order) I mentioned that I was amazed that people in the Renaissance could draw realistic-looking people but Bob Kane couldn't. I also ripped Finger's scripts because they were dumb. I loved the book, by the way, because they are seminal comics. I feel the same way about Fantastic Four - they're essential to read, but not terribly good comics.

A couple reasons why, I think: first, they were written a little more for children than adults, or at least teenagers, so Lee and Kirby weren't terribly interested in "mature" writing - they were throwing everything they could think of at the wall and seeing what stuck. Second, nobody was collecting comics, so the repetitive nature of the books was somewhat necessary, because no one kept them. So that hurts the flow.

Yeah, those comics suck! Bash away!

And I'm a Philadelphia homer - I'll take Steve Carlton in his prime (late 1970s). Good fastball, unhittable curve ball.

9:44 AM  
Blogger The Fortress Keeper said...

Hmmm. A bit over-zealous there. Let's try again.

The argument is similar to saying The White Stripes are better than Chuck Berry.

The content may be more sophisticated, but is it necessarily more creative?

(And if Superman's creators are Chuck Berry, Stan & Jack are The Beatles and Neal Adams is Led Zeppelin. Whee, this is fun...)

While I enjoy modern comics and drop a healthy bundle on them each week, often even the best efforts are commentaries or consolidations of what has happened previously.

So, let's agree Alias (the only Bendis work I truly admire) is far more grounded in reality than the first 20 or so issues of Amazing Spider-Man.

But is darkening the Silver Age or making it more real any more creative than thinking it up in the first place?

The comics of yore created a medium as it went alone. Part of the rush of those early, primitive Spider-Man comics is that nobody really tried those sort of stories with mainstream super-heroes before. Ditko's art, as odd as it was, perfectly illustrated the growth of that character.

I'd say the same about Golden Age Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

They're basically making up the rules as they go, and there's a certain creative excitement there that doesn't exist in modern stuff - even when its cool like Gødland.

So, I honestly do think the earlier, primitive stuff is good - even when its ridiculous like Silver Age DC.

I also think Jack Kirby is a great artist. No technique, perhaps, but it's different and full of action and its cool.

Conversely, David Finch - for example - is an awesome artist but a lot of time I feel I'm looking at a collection of Hildebrandt or Frazetta posters instead of a living, breathing work of pop-art.

Same goes for Alex Ross.

You may think differently, but hey, that's what makes for interesting discussions.

3:42 PM  
Blogger Grotesqueticle said...

(And if Superman's creators are Chuck Berry, Stan & Jack are The Beatles and Neal Adams is Led Zeppelin. Whee, this is fun...)

Then that would make Barry Windsor-Smith Neil Young, Bernie Wrightson would be Bruce Springsteen, and that would make Steve Gerber - Cyndi Lauper.

5:32 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

I hope I didn't come off as though I was discounting what they did as unimaginative. If anything, it might have been too imaginative. At times, it reads like when my four-year-old tells me a story, following no set beginning-middle-end structure and full of pointless, motivationless characters. She's creative, but her stories would make you long for New Avengers.

Obviously, these comics helped set the stage for the industry as it stands today, so they are of some value. The question is whether anyone really believes if Stan and Jack's reanimated corpse teamed up for a two-year stint on FF, it would be better than Alan Moore and John Cassaday or Brian K. Vaughn and Gary Frank or Peter David and Steve Epting or Robert Kirkman and Tony Harris. I don't think the Lee/Kirby team would be the weakest of any of those.

6:47 PM  
Blogger Chris Sims said...

I think most of us know by now how I feel about Jack Kirby, but I'll agree that those early FFs aren't my cup of tea either. They're kinda hard to get through at times, unlike their easy-to -read and often pure-joy DC counterparts of the same time, and occasionally just stop making sense for like fifteen pages (you know, when the Thing goes back in time to start "the legend" of Blackbeard).

But I do think that what that book starts out as is different from what it--and its creators--later becomes. Kirby goes on to refine his work and build his style, Stan refined his writing and did things like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #33, against which all Spidey stories pale in comparison.

Sorry, I was reading that one earlier today. Man, is it good.

Anyway, all I really wanted to say was that I think Reed breaking the fourth wall and shouting about how Sue isn't useless is awesome.

They even did a similar bit in a recent MARVEL ADVENTURES FF when a kid wrote in to say that all Reed does is stretch, and that's lame. I like it when readers get threatened.

10:32 PM  
Blogger plok said...

Funny!

Both "Reed's lame, all he does is stretch" and "check out this vaguely round shit if you're REALLY into wheels." And of course the pictures selected by Jake to demonstrate his point.

But come on, FF #11 does look unsophisticated next to Identity Crisis, but then again it also looks unsophisticated next to FF #69. Add to that that I can't see any reason to prefer Bagley's Spider-Man to John Romita Sr.'s based on any criteria...I really can't, honestly what would that criteria be? Less Sixties-ishness? Dunno.

Of course to get the real Kirby thrill I honestly think you either have to a) see the stuff in colour (the same could be said of Frank Quitely's work on A-S-S Superman and We3), or b) look at the raw pencils, which are unbelievable...still, for pure visual inventiveness and excitement, to say nothing of polish, I'd cheerfully put FF #69 up against any comic you'd care to name. I don't feel it's a fair comparison without counting that later Kirby in along with his earlier incarnation, and surely any quibbles with New Gods must only be stylistic ones, and not issues of primitive/developed?

But there are many ways to go with this anyhow. No point comparing Pia Guerra or Mark Buckingham to John Buscema, what could be shown by it? However, just as far as the theory goes, you can show an awful lot by comparing Albrecht Durer to his logical successor Norman Rockwell...you can show, for example, that the story of artistic genres' "evolution" is easily dispensed with just so long as you don't cherry-pick your examples. Golden Age Flashes and Spectres there are in abundance, but you've also got Alex Toths, Berni Wrightsons, Neal Adamses, John Byrnes and Mike Ploogs and Wally Woods and Marshall Rogerses...to say nothing of unduplicatable freaks and sports like Gene Colan and Gil Kane and Steve Leialoha. So the argument doesn't hold water, unless Brian Hitch draws an inherently better Doctor Octopus than Ross Andru does, unless John Cassaday's futurescapes are demonstrably better than Moebius'. Apples and apples, or oranges and oranges; it still doesn't add up. Anyway art style is secondary in comics, as we all know: it's the layout and the storytelling that really count, and in that respect Giant-Size Invaders #1 is no different from New Frontier #3...they're both the same, and equally excellent in terms of storytelling. So what odds, Jake? How now?

As for Stan Lee, I dunno...is he really a worse writer than Bendis? Roy Thomas? Ed Hannigan? Kevin Smith? Mark Millar? Tom DeFalco? Well, why? Whuffo? It's pretty hard to match the zing of Lee's famous "Jameson Loses His Cool" episode of Spider-Man, or even the loonily simple high-tech declarations Reed Richards trots out to describe his Radical Cube...does Marv Wolfman do any better in Tomb Of Dracula, really? Though it is a fantastic book...

A flaw in this argument seems to be that poor artists and writers are simply counted out of it: I don't notice you claiming Spawn or Heroes Reborn as examples of high sophistication, and nor should you...neither Stan nor Jack nor Steve would ever have made anything so boring. In fact The Djinn, by Steve Ditko and Steve Englehart (a uniquely talented comics writer who sits somewhere in the middle of the Stan Lee/Paul Jenkins continuum, ha ha), is easily as lucid a comic as any I have ever read, even though it is now over twenty years old. "God Loves, Man Kills" doesn't fare nearly so well, and neither does "Green Lantern: Rebirth". Hell, I could barely read those new GL Corps issues, you couldn't tell what the hell was happening half the time!

Val Mayerik: worse than Stuart Immonen?

Herge: worse than Dave Sim?

What are we talking about, again?

I actually think a lot of this is about colouring. Of course I could be wrong. I could be stupid, in fact.

But then everything looks stupid once you compare it with something else. And I'll take Ditko over Steranko over Giffen over Finch, thanks.

You?

7:43 AM  
Blogger CalvinPitt said...

plok: I'm not trying to be snide or anything here, but could personal preference in a subjective area" qualify as a reason for preferring Bagley to Ditko?

I like Ditko's Spider-Man alright (what I've seen of him), but I still have more fondness for Bagley's Spidey. Is that because he was the artist in all those Amazing Spider-Man's I bought during the '90s? Probably. And maybe that was your point, that trying to judge writers and artist against each other is pointless (or at least difficult) because it's all subjective.

I'd just thought I'd chip in.

For the record, my all-time favorite Spidey is Romita Jr.'s during his time working with JMS.

9:51 PM  
Blogger plok said...

Actually, Calvin, I decided to ask what's the difference between Bagley and Romita, and it's quite on purpose that I didn't bring Ditko into that! Because a preference is a preference is a preference, and lots of people don't prefer Ditko, and they can point to a lot of idiosyncratic technical things he does that are part of his style, and justify the preference by saying it has a tone they don't like, it has an angularity they don't like, the body positions seem awkward, etc. etc. What sets Ditko apart (which is also what in my opinion makes him great) is something that may repel the reader instead of attracting him. And thus we define taste.

But, we're not talking about taste! We're talking about whether or not it is true that comic artists of the past were not as good, for all their innovation, as the artists of today. Not as good, technically. Because to say they weren't as good stylistically is to get into the Ditko comparisons: and those who don't like him are never gonna like him just because I think they "should", so why bother?

But we can immunize against these differences of taste if we want to (at least a little), and still have our argument. We just have to pick people to compare who are generally working in the same kind of style. Like Bagley and Romita: it's hard for me to imagine someone having a real strong stylistic preference for one of those over the other that amounts to anything more than whim...I mean I prefer Romita, by far, but can I point to specific elements of style in him that set him apart from Bagley tonally, as I so easily can with Ditko? Hmm, I dunno...I mean I'd like to say I have good reasons for thinking Jazzy Johnny is a superior artist, but maybe I don't! But in any case, it's still slicing a lot thinner than comparing Bagley to Ditko, so I think the immunization works pretty well, if not perfectly. Stylistically, Romita and Bagley are absolutely in the same ballpark: warm, friendly, clear lines, expressive postures, detailed and individualized faces, the suggestion of naturalistic movements, lovingly rendered locales and clothes and objects that have a strong sense of existing in a particular historical period...if we prefer one of these men to the other, it isn't because either of them fail to bring these qualities out in their drawing! Whereas a Kirby face is always primarily a Kirby-face, a Ditko face is always a Ditko-face...

Okay, almost done. So, see here folks, I'm not arguing that Kirby's early Marvel style wasn't primitive by todays' standards. Jake has chosen his scans well: they clearly prove the point. But! As I said before, there's a world of difference between the Kirbies of 1961 and 1971, and I'd argue that the later Kirby is not unsophisticated by today's standards at all. So I don't even need to bring John Cassaday into it: Kirby himself demonstrates that his early primitivism was, well, primitive. Not that I don't think they're the very height of modern drawing, because I do! But I can't argue with Jake's scans either, especially when (again, as I said) I lay them alongside my reprint copy of FF #69.

So where does that leave us? I can say that Kamandi or The Djinn is fabulously drawn all day, and still not convince anyone to prefer their tonal qualities of style over the ones in New Avengers or Daredevil. My assertion that Kirby's later work is right up there with any current-day art does nothing to falsify Jake's argument that today's artists are better, even though I'd like to think it does, because that would flatter my sense of self-importance.

However, I think trying to pit Romita vs. Bagley does give a prospect of falsifiability here. Because if the argument's to be true, then either the superiority of Bagley's artwork must shine through, or there must be extenuating circumstances that prevent it from doing so. Like, you know, you could say that either of these artists is some kind of weird freak, a sui generis kind of talent who is on a completely different planet from anyone else. (Like, say, Ditko or Kirby!) But I think it's pretty clear that isn't the case here. No, instead we've got two very, very talented "natural" drawers who also happened to work on the same character's comic some forty years apart, each of whom is very identifiably linked with the character, but without either of them being in a "founding father" relationship to him. It's a great natural experiment! So...

I call the question: is Mark Bagley a better artist than John Romita, Sr., and (this is the important part) if he is better, then why is he better?

My own answer to this is that, as far as I can tell, he isn't better. No knock on Bagley intended! Because I mean it just exactly how it sounds: he isn't better.

And therefore, I disagree with Jake's contention, and await someone to come along and reply in such a way that it changes my mind.

Oh no, that was all really, really pompous of me, wasn't it? Sorry, folks. You know how bloggers are.

3:14 AM  
Blogger Jake said...

I prefer Bagley--and most modern artists for that matter--because of the higher level of detail. In many ways, that's probably the product of improved printing technology more than skill level of the artist himself. If you're drawing for high-quality, digitally-printed, glossy paper, you can put in a lot more than if you're drawing for low-quality, press-printed newprint. Romita Sr. could have put in more detail, but what's the point if it's all going to get lost in ink bleed?

One thing that's come of this post is that no one has tried to defend the first ten issues as "greatness above reproach." That gives me some hope. What I've posted is a good example of what I think of when I think "Jack Kirby." Instead of saying, "Kirby's the King! That panel with Namor is awesome!" people have reasonably accepted that FF started a bit one-dimensional and Jack's art wasn't as developed. If I'd gotten the former response, I would have stopped reading, but being told things improve over the next 90 issues, I'm willing to stick it out at least until I get to Galactus or the Inhumans (which is a group I've never understood the appeal of).

It should also probably be noted there are a lot of bad artists and writers today. I'm not stating everyone today is better than everyone in 1965, 1975, or 1985. My point was more one that an artist who wants to be better today has a greater opportunity to do so because he can learn from those who went before him. Rob Liefeld can ignore those lessons if he so chooses.

10:06 AM  
Blogger Scipio said...

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are overrated hacks week?

Followed by "The Sky is Blue" Week, "The Pope is Catholic" Week, and "Bears Shit in the Woods" Week, I assume, no doubt...

3:23 PM  
Blogger plok said...

Is the Pope really all that Catholic, though?

Okay, thank you, I totally thought that it had to be the detail thing, and like you I would suspect that it's a technological advance that makes it possible (or maybe even necessary)...also I still think colour has a lot to do with that impression of detail, but I can't prove it, so there you go.

Me, I often enjoy a bit of detail. I'll still take Romita over Bagley, however, even if I can't quite explain why.

4:54 PM  

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