Has Mark Millar Ever Even Read a Marvel Comic?
I apologize to anyone who was looking forward to my poking fun at Lois Lane meeting a Clark Kent lookalike on a TV dating show or Jimmy Olsen being sold into slavery or Mr. T saying:
Normal snarkery will resume later, but after stepping into Greg's Comics this afternoon only to be greeted by Robert slowly shaking his head and sighing as he handed me a copy of Civil War #4, I figured I had to temporarily abandon my Silver Age tales of latent homosexuality (and I just picked up the Batman Showcase!) and emasculating girl reporters and return to the present.
Upon entering the store, I was informed that I must read Mark Millar's latest edition of the "Marvel Comics event in seven parts" immediately so discussion in the store could recommence. I read it quickly and saw why no one wanted to ruin the three big shocking moments.
It was not because they were so shocking and would have me dropping my jaw at Millar's finely crafted story, but because if they had told me, I never would have believed anything so stupid would be put in even a fringe, out-of-continuity story, much less "the" Marvel event of the year.
When I was finished, I put the comic back on the New Comics table, but Robert encouraged me to keep it, telling me it deserved Ye Olde treatment. So, this is the part where I would say SPOILERS AHEAD!!! if there was anything here that wasn't already completely ruined.
Last issue, you will remember Iron Man and his pro-registration forces attacked Captain America and his band of rebels. Iron Man, in an effort to bring about rational discourse on the topic of security versus freedom, punched his best friend and closest compatriot of the last several decades in the face so hard that there's no legitimate reason Captain America's head wasn't found two states away. If that wasn't enough, on the final page, Thor showed up and he's now a government patsy.
Holy shit! Thor's really not cool with people not registering their superpowers. I wonder if the RIAA has something like that in its arsenal and is just waiting to unleash it.
"Forsooth, where abtainest thou these Flogging Molly MP3's? Have at thee!"
So Thor is throwing his hammer at his old friends and having lightning strike all around them while telling them they're all dead and there is no escape. Fortunately, while he talks big no one gets seriously harmed, even though he's tossing around Mjolnir--which can knock out Superman--at non-invulnerable (which I guess would be "vulnerable") superheroes like Daredevil and Dagger and Falcon.
Meanwhile, Iron Man and Cap continue their grandstanding blather, which includes my favorite line of the issue:
Millar, you can't have it both ways. We saw Iron Man nearly decapitate Captain America, so you have to decide what the upshot of that blow was. Either Iron Man has to say, "Cap, don't make me do this again. You may have withstood that blow once, but you won't get up if I do it again," or, if Cap's jaw really is "practically hanging off," Captain America's line has to be "Yaw awwllyahk ahkahinkah?" Technically, that would have been my favorite line of this issue.
The rebels sound the retreat, with Hercules creating a distraction so Falcon can fly in and save Captain America. The fight starts up again featuring the matchup comic fandom has been screaming for: Goliath vs. Thor!
Whoa! That's a lot of blood, but I'm sure since Daredevil took Mjolnir off his noggin, a little lightning's not going to do much damage to Goliath.
Oh... I stand corrected.
Thor then tries to kill all the rebels in on big lightning strike, but Sue Richards shields them in a force bubble long enough for Cloak to transport them all away. Sue is upset and so are Peter Parker and Hank Pym... but that's about it.
In case you didn't catch it, that means Reed and Tony are "so remote, so detatched" since they are far more concerned that their Thor isn't operating the way they'd expected him too and immerse themselves in studying what they can do to make him a little less sociopathic.
What we learn is the new Thor is a clone, created from a strand of hair Tony Stark picked off a chair from the Avengers' very first meeting and has saved for all these decades (or however long ago the Avengers were first formed in Marvel continuity).
No, seriously.
First, do gods have DNA? According to this story, yes, and being this is a fictional world, I don't have much room to argue otherwise, but it still seems debatable.
Second, can a clone of Thor still wield Mjolnir? According to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:
"... no living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy. Provisions to that enchantment require that there can be but one worthy wielder of the hammer at a given time, and the current wielder must be bested in fair combat by a worthy contestant in order for that contestant to win it."
Third, if you are granted your powers by the gods, shouldn't that be expressed in a non-genetic way? Odin could take away Thor's power, couldn't he? I would think of Thor's power as something bestowed upon him by Odin, kind of like Hal Jordan's power ring bestowed upon him by the Guardians of Oa. Cloning Thor without Odin's blessing would be like cloning Hal Jordan without a power ring.
Fourth, if we cloned Jesus, could the clone feed the masses with just a loaf of bread and some fish?
Pym suggests the problem may be that Thor doesn't have a human anchor to serve as his conscience, but to the best of my knowledge, Thor was never a bloodthirsty psychopath held in check only by the high moral standards of Donald Blake. In fact, according to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (I only have one issue of the OHotMU, but it just happens to be the issue with Thor):
"[Thor] took note of the atrocities some of his more zealous followers [Vikings] were committing in his name. Ashamed, he withdrew from Earthly activities altogether..."
So, Thor sans human anchored conscience still found the savagery of the Vikings not to his liking, so I think it's fair to say Thor without a human conscience still wouldn't be the type to blow a hole through one of his former comrades just to prove a point.
For that matter, Donald Blake wasn't even a real human. Odin created that identity for Thor and sent him to Earth in that form with no knowledge he was, in truth, the god of thunder, letting him live that way for two years to learn humility before discovering his true identity. So, Blake wouldn't even have a real human conscience to keep Thor in check if he did go berserker.
While this stupidity is going on at Avengers Tower, the rebels are arguing in their own base. Some people want to plead for amnesty and turn themselves in. Others... well, really just Captain America and Luke Cage would rather fight until their dying breaths than register with SHIELD. The whole point of this scene is to show that Cap is just as extreme a zealot on the non-registration side of this argument as Iron Man is on the other end...
...just in case you missed it in the last three issues and all the other Civil War-related comics that have come out in the last four months because Millar's been too subtle in his characterizations.
When reading the part where Goliath died, one of the guys in the store asked, "He's huge! Where are they going to bury him?" Say what you will about this comic, but at least one question gets answered in a reasonable way.
Tony Stark buys 38 adjacent plots, figuring it's the least he can do. Though it should be noted Goliath isn't in a coffin of any type and isn't buried very deeply. Let's hope they pour a bunch of concrete over him because otherwise he's going to rot, seep into the drinking water, create a giant sink hole full of rotten flesh, and stink up everything within three miles.
Also, I'm sure they are there because the cranes needed them to lower him into the grave, but the image of a black man in chains is a bit of over the top symbolism. Hmm, could this some how represent that the superhero registration act and its supporters restrict freedom? It's so vague what that shot could mean, but I'm going to guess that Iron Man's people don't want to let those who oppose them escape the bonds of responsibility, even in death. Then again, maybe it's a preventative measure in case Goliath turns zombie.
At the funeral, Tony almost feels bad about Goliath being killed by his Thor 2.0 clonebot... almost... but gets a visit and a boost in confidence from the mom who bitched him out in issue #1, back when this series fooled everyone into thinking it had promise.
This scene provoked some debate. Robert felt Millar included this to show how the "commonfolk" are behind Iron Man and the registration. Since the story focuses so much on the heroes, it's important to see that the populace of this story isn't as likely to see Cable and the Young Avengers as noble rebels as we are.
I think it's because this woman is the key to the whole boondoggle, working some kind of mind control voodoo on Tony and Cap to create this chaos. She may even be Loki in disguise.
And that Iron Man action figure has to have some kind of information gathering equipment on it, right? It's gotta be like the Boba Fett figure Joe gives Dave in the poker episode of NewsRadio. Either that, or it has some magical properties that allow her to see what Iron Man sees or manipulate his mind as long as he keeps it on his person.
Oh, and just in case you thought this funeral might have a sobering effect on people and make them rethink the whole "unleashing a sociopath with the power of a god on our friends just because they don't agree with everything we've said"...
Finally, the pro-registration forces return to the issue of manpower in hunting down the rebels. There just aren't enough superheroes to track them all down and capture them. Then again, they have Thor, who could probably be set loose and come back 48 hours later with the skulls of every single one of the anti-registrationers. Oh, and they have several thousand SHIELD agents at their disposal. For that matter, since this is a government supported act, you would think they'd have the military to aid them as well.
Regardless, they need to get more help catching Captain America and his band of merry men. So, where do they turn?
Before I answer that question, let's go back about six months, when the Civil War promotional images first started coming out. One that sparked some debate was the image of Spider-Man--half his face in the old red and blue costume, the other in his Iron Spider outfit--with Cap on one side and Iron Man on the other. Voices rose up from the internet declaring it a mistake to let it be known what side Captain America would take in this fight.
Cap, they reasoned, does the right thing. Once you put Captain America on a side of an issue, the other side must be wrong. Mark Millar promised this series wouldn't be about right and wrong. This wasn't a black and white issue; there were many shades of grey to be explored. Civil War would focus on the debate and understanding the viewpoints of both sides of the issue, and while he insisted it wouldn't draw parallels to America's ongoing debate over national security versus individual freedoms, it clearly was going to draw parallels to America's ongoing debate over national security versus individual freedoms.
If it wasn't clear by the end of the first issue, it became rather blatant in the second that there clearly was a right and wrong side to this issue and Cap was on the right side, even if he is insane about it. However, Millar may not have felt he was conspicuous enough about that and really needed to find a way to prove Tony Stark makes Stalin look like a precocious schoolgirl with pigtails.
So, where do they turn?
What could go wrong?
I have one interesting final note that came up while discussing this debacle with Chris from 2 Guys. This "Marvel Event" got major media coverage. It's supposed to draw in non-comic readers and pique the interest of readers who stick primarily with DC books or may have shyed away from mainstream Marvel in favor of Image or even Marvel's Ultimate or MAX lines. Yet, all the iconic characters that are known to non-comic fans--meaning even my mother knows who Spider-Man and Hulk are--are completely out of character.
Spider-Man: Wearing completely new costume, revealing secret identity, living in penthouse apartment, operating as part of a team and taking orders from Iron Man
Hulk: Not even there.
Captain America: Endangering the lives of his troops, abandoning his country, paranoid, delusions of grandeur.
Reed Richards: Emotionless, oblivious to his wife's concerns, lying to Sue.
Sue Richards: Walking out on her husband and kids to join anti-government rebellion.
Thing: Quiet (Has he said a word this series?), keeping his emotions bottled up, blindly following orders.
Thor: Cloned sociopath willing to kill his friends for the fun of it.
Iron Man: Total asshole willing to imprison or kill his best friend to make a point.
Is this really the Marvel Universe Joe Quesada thinks the masses wants?
Normal snarkery will resume later, but after stepping into Greg's Comics this afternoon only to be greeted by Robert slowly shaking his head and sighing as he handed me a copy of Civil War #4, I figured I had to temporarily abandon my Silver Age tales of latent homosexuality (and I just picked up the Batman Showcase!) and emasculating girl reporters and return to the present.Upon entering the store, I was informed that I must read Mark Millar's latest edition of the "Marvel Comics event in seven parts" immediately so discussion in the store could recommence. I read it quickly and saw why no one wanted to ruin the three big shocking moments.
It was not because they were so shocking and would have me dropping my jaw at Millar's finely crafted story, but because if they had told me, I never would have believed anything so stupid would be put in even a fringe, out-of-continuity story, much less "the" Marvel event of the year.
When I was finished, I put the comic back on the New Comics table, but Robert encouraged me to keep it, telling me it deserved Ye Olde treatment. So, this is the part where I would say SPOILERS AHEAD!!! if there was anything here that wasn't already completely ruined.
Last issue, you will remember Iron Man and his pro-registration forces attacked Captain America and his band of rebels. Iron Man, in an effort to bring about rational discourse on the topic of security versus freedom, punched his best friend and closest compatriot of the last several decades in the face so hard that there's no legitimate reason Captain America's head wasn't found two states away. If that wasn't enough, on the final page, Thor showed up and he's now a government patsy.
Holy shit! Thor's really not cool with people not registering their superpowers. I wonder if the RIAA has something like that in its arsenal and is just waiting to unleash it."Forsooth, where abtainest thou these Flogging Molly MP3's? Have at thee!"
So Thor is throwing his hammer at his old friends and having lightning strike all around them while telling them they're all dead and there is no escape. Fortunately, while he talks big no one gets seriously harmed, even though he's tossing around Mjolnir--which can knock out Superman--at non-invulnerable (which I guess would be "vulnerable") superheroes like Daredevil and Dagger and Falcon.
Meanwhile, Iron Man and Cap continue their grandstanding blather, which includes my favorite line of the issue:
Millar, you can't have it both ways. We saw Iron Man nearly decapitate Captain America, so you have to decide what the upshot of that blow was. Either Iron Man has to say, "Cap, don't make me do this again. You may have withstood that blow once, but you won't get up if I do it again," or, if Cap's jaw really is "practically hanging off," Captain America's line has to be "Yaw awwllyahk ahkahinkah?" Technically, that would have been my favorite line of this issue.The rebels sound the retreat, with Hercules creating a distraction so Falcon can fly in and save Captain America. The fight starts up again featuring the matchup comic fandom has been screaming for: Goliath vs. Thor!
Whoa! That's a lot of blood, but I'm sure since Daredevil took Mjolnir off his noggin, a little lightning's not going to do much damage to Goliath.Oh... I stand corrected.Thor then tries to kill all the rebels in on big lightning strike, but Sue Richards shields them in a force bubble long enough for Cloak to transport them all away. Sue is upset and so are Peter Parker and Hank Pym... but that's about it.
In case you didn't catch it, that means Reed and Tony are "so remote, so detatched" since they are far more concerned that their Thor isn't operating the way they'd expected him too and immerse themselves in studying what they can do to make him a little less sociopathic.What we learn is the new Thor is a clone, created from a strand of hair Tony Stark picked off a chair from the Avengers' very first meeting and has saved for all these decades (or however long ago the Avengers were first formed in Marvel continuity).
No, seriously.
First, do gods have DNA? According to this story, yes, and being this is a fictional world, I don't have much room to argue otherwise, but it still seems debatable.Second, can a clone of Thor still wield Mjolnir? According to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe:
"... no living being can lift the hammer from the ground unless he or she is worthy. Provisions to that enchantment require that there can be but one worthy wielder of the hammer at a given time, and the current wielder must be bested in fair combat by a worthy contestant in order for that contestant to win it."
Third, if you are granted your powers by the gods, shouldn't that be expressed in a non-genetic way? Odin could take away Thor's power, couldn't he? I would think of Thor's power as something bestowed upon him by Odin, kind of like Hal Jordan's power ring bestowed upon him by the Guardians of Oa. Cloning Thor without Odin's blessing would be like cloning Hal Jordan without a power ring.
Fourth, if we cloned Jesus, could the clone feed the masses with just a loaf of bread and some fish?
Pym suggests the problem may be that Thor doesn't have a human anchor to serve as his conscience, but to the best of my knowledge, Thor was never a bloodthirsty psychopath held in check only by the high moral standards of Donald Blake. In fact, according to The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (I only have one issue of the OHotMU, but it just happens to be the issue with Thor):
"[Thor] took note of the atrocities some of his more zealous followers [Vikings] were committing in his name. Ashamed, he withdrew from Earthly activities altogether..."
So, Thor sans human anchored conscience still found the savagery of the Vikings not to his liking, so I think it's fair to say Thor without a human conscience still wouldn't be the type to blow a hole through one of his former comrades just to prove a point.
For that matter, Donald Blake wasn't even a real human. Odin created that identity for Thor and sent him to Earth in that form with no knowledge he was, in truth, the god of thunder, letting him live that way for two years to learn humility before discovering his true identity. So, Blake wouldn't even have a real human conscience to keep Thor in check if he did go berserker.
While this stupidity is going on at Avengers Tower, the rebels are arguing in their own base. Some people want to plead for amnesty and turn themselves in. Others... well, really just Captain America and Luke Cage would rather fight until their dying breaths than register with SHIELD. The whole point of this scene is to show that Cap is just as extreme a zealot on the non-registration side of this argument as Iron Man is on the other end...
...just in case you missed it in the last three issues and all the other Civil War-related comics that have come out in the last four months because Millar's been too subtle in his characterizations.When reading the part where Goliath died, one of the guys in the store asked, "He's huge! Where are they going to bury him?" Say what you will about this comic, but at least one question gets answered in a reasonable way.
Tony Stark buys 38 adjacent plots, figuring it's the least he can do. Though it should be noted Goliath isn't in a coffin of any type and isn't buried very deeply. Let's hope they pour a bunch of concrete over him because otherwise he's going to rot, seep into the drinking water, create a giant sink hole full of rotten flesh, and stink up everything within three miles.Also, I'm sure they are there because the cranes needed them to lower him into the grave, but the image of a black man in chains is a bit of over the top symbolism. Hmm, could this some how represent that the superhero registration act and its supporters restrict freedom? It's so vague what that shot could mean, but I'm going to guess that Iron Man's people don't want to let those who oppose them escape the bonds of responsibility, even in death. Then again, maybe it's a preventative measure in case Goliath turns zombie.
At the funeral, Tony almost feels bad about Goliath being killed by his Thor 2.0 clonebot... almost... but gets a visit and a boost in confidence from the mom who bitched him out in issue #1, back when this series fooled everyone into thinking it had promise.
This scene provoked some debate. Robert felt Millar included this to show how the "commonfolk" are behind Iron Man and the registration. Since the story focuses so much on the heroes, it's important to see that the populace of this story isn't as likely to see Cable and the Young Avengers as noble rebels as we are.I think it's because this woman is the key to the whole boondoggle, working some kind of mind control voodoo on Tony and Cap to create this chaos. She may even be Loki in disguise.
And that Iron Man action figure has to have some kind of information gathering equipment on it, right? It's gotta be like the Boba Fett figure Joe gives Dave in the poker episode of NewsRadio. Either that, or it has some magical properties that allow her to see what Iron Man sees or manipulate his mind as long as he keeps it on his person.
Oh, and just in case you thought this funeral might have a sobering effect on people and make them rethink the whole "unleashing a sociopath with the power of a god on our friends just because they don't agree with everything we've said"...
Finally, the pro-registration forces return to the issue of manpower in hunting down the rebels. There just aren't enough superheroes to track them all down and capture them. Then again, they have Thor, who could probably be set loose and come back 48 hours later with the skulls of every single one of the anti-registrationers. Oh, and they have several thousand SHIELD agents at their disposal. For that matter, since this is a government supported act, you would think they'd have the military to aid them as well.Regardless, they need to get more help catching Captain America and his band of merry men. So, where do they turn?
Before I answer that question, let's go back about six months, when the Civil War promotional images first started coming out. One that sparked some debate was the image of Spider-Man--half his face in the old red and blue costume, the other in his Iron Spider outfit--with Cap on one side and Iron Man on the other. Voices rose up from the internet declaring it a mistake to let it be known what side Captain America would take in this fight.
Cap, they reasoned, does the right thing. Once you put Captain America on a side of an issue, the other side must be wrong. Mark Millar promised this series wouldn't be about right and wrong. This wasn't a black and white issue; there were many shades of grey to be explored. Civil War would focus on the debate and understanding the viewpoints of both sides of the issue, and while he insisted it wouldn't draw parallels to America's ongoing debate over national security versus individual freedoms, it clearly was going to draw parallels to America's ongoing debate over national security versus individual freedoms.
If it wasn't clear by the end of the first issue, it became rather blatant in the second that there clearly was a right and wrong side to this issue and Cap was on the right side, even if he is insane about it. However, Millar may not have felt he was conspicuous enough about that and really needed to find a way to prove Tony Stark makes Stalin look like a precocious schoolgirl with pigtails.
So, where do they turn?
What could go wrong?I have one interesting final note that came up while discussing this debacle with Chris from 2 Guys. This "Marvel Event" got major media coverage. It's supposed to draw in non-comic readers and pique the interest of readers who stick primarily with DC books or may have shyed away from mainstream Marvel in favor of Image or even Marvel's Ultimate or MAX lines. Yet, all the iconic characters that are known to non-comic fans--meaning even my mother knows who Spider-Man and Hulk are--are completely out of character.
Spider-Man: Wearing completely new costume, revealing secret identity, living in penthouse apartment, operating as part of a team and taking orders from Iron Man
Hulk: Not even there.
Captain America: Endangering the lives of his troops, abandoning his country, paranoid, delusions of grandeur.
Reed Richards: Emotionless, oblivious to his wife's concerns, lying to Sue.
Sue Richards: Walking out on her husband and kids to join anti-government rebellion.
Thing: Quiet (Has he said a word this series?), keeping his emotions bottled up, blindly following orders.
Thor: Cloned sociopath willing to kill his friends for the fun of it.
Iron Man: Total asshole willing to imprison or kill his best friend to make a point.
Is this really the Marvel Universe Joe Quesada thinks the masses wants?
posted by Jake | 9/20/2006 07:50:00 PM
76 Comments:
Thing has gone into hiding, unable to reconciile his patriotism with the fact that he thinks the Act is wrong. Civil Bore has not caught up with this yet, although it happened ages ago in the Spidey and FF books.
So that leaves Reed, Valeria and Franklin as the Fantastic Four.
This whole event is so badly-thought out (Sue should have left in #1, Spidey should have switched ages ago (Spidey's the guy in the jacket and balaclavaa, I bet)), and utterly fails to deliver on the promise that it'll be a fairly highbrow bit of political commentary with some fights andd stuff. Instead it's the same old shock moments and fight scenes, with none of the promised depth. Bleh.
I did notice that Hank Pym correctly identifies what's wrong with Clone-Thor (even if it makes no sense, as you point out). Couple this with him accurately predicting the House of M stuff with Michael/Xorn (even if it made no sense), and being the confident team leader in Beyond!, it's almost as if Marvel are secretly rehbilitating him as a character. It's about time.
To be fair to Millar, he's got a fair bit of political nous, so I don't think this is the story he'd lik to be writing if he had the choice. I suspect he's doing the best he can within editorial boundaries. Still bad, but not all his fault, methinks.
I think you're being too fair to Millar, Kelvin. He's not known for nuance.
Huh, I'm mildly stunned that Reed and Tony are being portrayed as worse than Hank Pym. Given how he tends to get portrayed...
Oddly, as much as Reed's my fourth favorite Marvel character, I'm not as appalled by him in this as I am by Tony.
I don't really agree with Millar's take on the character here, but Reed's position isn't terribly shocking to me. He's a character that really can get so caught up in raw ideas, data, numbers and theory that he forgets about the human element even when things are going downhill fast. (I don't think it's being portrayed well though).
Tony though I find simply appalling. I can't see any plausible reason or basis for his behavior here. It's quite bizarre...hopefully that'll turn out intentional (i.e mind control or something) or else the character will be very hard to salvage.
Ragnell, Millar's always spectacularly unsubtle, but he does seem to understand how to write around a political/moral question. The fact he's not doing so here suggests to me that he's not being allowed to do so. The rampant unsublety is all him, but the complete avoidance of intellectual depth is not, I reckon.
Or he may have lost his eye for political commentary, which is also possible, I suppose.
When I was making the list of "out of characteristics," Kalinara, Reed was the hardest to put into words. Emotionless, calculating, more interested in solving a problem than recognizing the problems the solution might raise... well, that's not out of character for Reed. Instead, it's more just that Reed is being shown to be a complete jerk instead of an absent-minded professor.
Maaaaaaan am I glad I gave up on buying mainstream continued superhero stories.
And, um, the question is - why wouldn't Giant Man's corpse just shrink back to normal proportions after his death?
I always thought Civil War had potential - it's an interesting idea. But I can't get past the way the entire basis of the story is so damn stupid - a group of superheroes is unsuccessful in stopping a supervillain from killing a bunch of people, so the entire population turns against superheroes. Are Wolverine and Namor really the only people in the entire world who care about the guy who actually killed all the children?
As the most die-hardest of die-hard Iron Man fans:
Fuck you, Marvel.
Fuck you, Millar.
Fuck you, Quesada.
Thanks for essentially portraying my favorite hero as a selfish dick with zero regard for continuity.
I mean, ZERO.
Not even the basest elements.
More on this tomorrow at 2GBC.
I'm so glad I'm not reading this.
From the sound of it, though, it's bad for more generic reasons than I expected. I expected most of the awfulness would come from heavy-handed political "allegory" - "See? If you ponder, is not Marvel's Earth much like Bu$hitler's AmeriKKKa?"
But it looks like they're sticking to the old standby of Just Plain Sucks.
From what I understand, over in the FF title, the real Donald Blake/Thor has shown up to collect the hammer that fell to Earth. I'm guessing the clone Thor has to have some sort of high tech, Starked-up Mjolnir facsimile.
So maybe we'll get to see some Thor-on-Thor action before this craps over with.
One day in the future Earth-Prime Superboy will punch reality's walls while banging the Scarlet Witch and everything in Earth-616 will be reset.
First, do gods have DNA?
Why wouldn't they? The Asgardians aren't actual gods, after all - they're basically very powerful aliens with super-advanced technology, like the New Gods. So asking "Do gods have DNA?" is basically like asking "Does Superman have DNA?"
I have always wanted to see Marvel introduce Jesus, Moses and Yahweh characters into continuity. Sure, he's the real Jesus - but the real Jesus is a Kirbyoid cosmic-powered super-alien from the Planet Heaven who battles Emperor Satan of Dimension Hell with the fantastical power of his handheld Mothercross!
"See? If you ponder, is not Marvel's Earth much like Bu$hitler's AmeriKKKa?"
Y'know, it's funny, but I've never once heard the term "Bu$hitler" coming from anyone who was actually in the process of criticizing George Bush.
You have valid points and I always enjoy reading your stuff even if I don't agree. I still enjoy Civil War and like the way it's being played out..even if it is a little heavy handed in it's portrayals.
Kinds of makes you miss the Crossing, doesn't it? Or Heroes Reborn? Or even Armor Wars II? Jake, you totally saved me another four bucks here. I'm poor, and don't have the cash to throw at titles I know full well are just going to enrage or sadden me. (Ultimate X-Men Annual #2 and Warlord were left on the shelves as well.)
I think 'Clor' (from Newsarama, where they also half-ass an explanation for Goliath not shrinking, that should have gone in the story) has at least Thor's inherent power, and not that bestowed by Odin, and probably a substitute hammer like Brandon said. Asgard and all are presumably still dead or missing again, otherwise Odin or someone would have done something there, right?
Still, every time I think this has reached bottom with characterization, I'm proven wrong.
Y'know, it's funny, but I've never once heard the term "Bu$hitler" coming from anyone who was actually in the process of criticizing George Bush.
I have, in quotes from hard-left sites like democraticunderground, though I think it's fallen out of favor as a little too cliche and hyperbolic even for that crowd, as they search for more nuanced belittling nicknames.
My personal favorite is one that AFAIK is totally made up, but captures the "use insulting nicknames in lieu of argument" mindset, "Chimpy McHitlerburton."
That's...wow. I mean...um...wow.
Infinite Crisis felt kind of like "Action Figure Theater." Put all the toys in a box, shake it up, and let 'em fight! Woo! And thus it was boring and melon-brained.
Civil War takes a script from a dimwitted sci-fi story and crams preexisting characters into it, "good fit" be damned. And thus it is boring and melon-brained.
The big question I have, and the decisive question of Civil War is:
What Side Is Fin Fang Foom On?
Because that'll be my side.
Moose N. Squirrel said:
"Why wouldn't they? The Asgardians aren't actual gods, after all - they're basically very powerful aliens with super-advanced technology, like the New Gods."
nope that idea was never shown to be true in the marvel universe.
you are thinking about earth-x, but that series is basically an elseworld with alot of ideas that luckly aren't true in the normal marvel universe, like nightcrawler being belasco.
I'm so glad other people are willing to read this and sum it up for me. I was really interested in the series until I read the first issue (and I enjoyed Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis).
At least Reed is flexible so they can cram the round peg into a square hole easily enough.
At least the schedule for Civil War is putting Ultimate Hulk v. Wolverine to shame. Another book I was enjoying until it vanished and burned that bridge for me.
Agents of Atlas is really good though, and so was Last Planet Standing if you want a classic Marvel crossover with galactic menaces, heroes being punchy and heroic, and the necessity to team up with villains to fight a greater common threat.
There is a panel in there, I think on the page where Reed has FakeThor on the operating table, where we see a computer screen with the hammer on it. The hammer is opened up, with wires and circuits spilling out, so it's not Mjolnir.
In the venture brothers they have a character called Doctor or mister Impossible. He was supposed to be a parody of Richards...but it's just funny how he's now an accurate portrayal of the character.
Seriously. i kid you not, my store did not get anythign EXCEPT this title done today, so i left with only that and 52. and im SO gutted.
marvel = shit. fuck you quesada, i really really hate you. millar, youre even worse. this is SO bad.
"Huh, I'm mildly stunned that Reed and Tony are being portrayed as worse than Hank Pym. Given how he tends to get portrayed..."
Then again, how bad do you have to be to make the guy whose characterization for the last 20 years has been "wife-beater" look good?
(Spidey's the guy in the jacket and balaclavaa, I bet)
Wrong eye color. Spidey's are brown, this guy's are pale blue.
Between that, the fact that he has both eyes (ruling out Fury) and the fact that Millar has said Issue #5 will reveal his identity, I'm almost positive it's The Punisher. After all, Punisher War Journal #5 had it's release date pushed back to coincide with #5, and Matt Fraction mentioned that Millar had an awesome unveiling planned for the character in the series.
Given that and the cover solicits for Civil War #5, I'm predicting Big Frank is gonna show up to save Spidey's ass when the New Thunderbolts turn on him, possibly even getting the full-page spread at the end of the issue.
Ack, I meant Punisher War Journal #1, not #5.
I flipped through the issue, but I haven't picked it up yet. Somehow, I got convinced to buy the first three issues at WizardWorld, and asked for this one to be put on my pull pile, having not yet read past the first...I think it amounts to morbid curiosity more than anything else.
Anyway, about Goliath, Hank Pym is on the pro-Registration team. Pym Particles can shrink things, whether or not they're alive. Wouldn't it make more sense (if a less striking visual) for Tony to say "hey, Hank, a little help here?"
I love the idea of making Cap seem like a fanatic in order to give some credibility to the "neither side is right" group, because that's so in-character. Ideally, someone else anti-registration would be whipping up a fanatical fervor, which Cap would also be trying to stem ("Son, I admire your passion, but this just isn't the way"), leaving him (and eventually folks like Spider-Man and others formerly of the pro-Registration group) in the middle, trying to stop both the Registration Act and the anarchists. Making Cap an extremist only simplifies the story, it doesn't give any more credence to that idiotic "there's no right side" position.
Sweet Jesus.
Thank you so much for posting this so I am not on the frikkin' floor when I go back to work on Friday. This is, without a doubt, above and beyond anything horrible I could have thought of. It's just.... unfathomable how this could have been considered a good idea.
And to think we had to wait for this. To anticiapate it and build our hopes considering last issue's splash.
Jake
I flipped through this issue at my comic shop as well. Your post perfectly summed up my feelings about this pile of clor.
And isn't Thor supposed to be one of Tony's best friends? What a violation!
The real Thor needs to toss Tony and Reed through a skyscraper really quick.
Anyone else see the heavy handed metafor in the pro-reg creating a False God for their side?
Surely this is no comparison to a certian political party claiming to be God's Own Party or using Jesus to cover their ass!?
Wrong eye color. Spidey's are brown, this guy's are pale blue.
Good point, although that rather depends on Marvel's editors paying attention, and nothing thus for in CW suggests that they are.
Punisher makes sense, as he's been featured in the Files thing, so he's bound to turn up at some point. But why would he be masked? Or halfway up the side of a building?
Oh, and predicted Reed's nonsense months ago. I need to update the article now.
Oh, and predicted Reed's nonsense months ago. I need to update the article now.
THat got me thinking...
Is it possible DOom is possesing Richards in order to fuck up his life, family and weaken America for an inevitable Doom invasion?
Meh. I disagree. Although this is Millar's serious take on the Marvel U, I see no reason in disbelieving in the ability of a NORSE GOD being cloned by a uber genius that can STRETCH and a guy who built a suit of armor that allows him to FLY AND SHOOT REPULSOR BEAMS. We may not like that Millar's use of the idea, however to discredit him for writing that in is really just being a bit too nit picky.
But that's just one man's opinion.
Spence, I don't really dispute that Reed and Tony could clone Thor (I raised the question, but accepted the answer since this is a fictional universe). The question is whether A) they would and B) if they would do it so hamhandedly.
More specifically, I think people are questions Millar's writing ability because he has made the icons of the Marvel Universe into one-dimensional characters that are not even reflective of themselves. By that I mean that if you had to pick one trait to epitomize Tony Stark and reduce him to a flavorless symbol of that trait, would you pick "blind allegiance to the law at the expense of his friends' lives?" Is Cap's essential characteristic really "fighting rather than reasoning?"
Millar promised this book would be rich with debate that would show us both sides of the Registration Act in a sympathetic light. There has been little debate and what there has been has taken place either as the two sides shout at each other between attempts by friends to kill each other or when two people on the same side muse about what the other side thinks.
Chris brought up (and I hope I'm not ruining a future post) an issue of Captain America where Steve Rogers had given up the mantle of Cap, but Iron Man wouldn't let him quit. Cap, he explained, didn't give up on him when he was drunk in a gutter, so he couldn't give up on Cap. These two are supposed to be men who have fought side by side for years and trust each other without question, but Millar has them trying to kill each other over a stupid law that was railroaded into existance in the first issue.
...a stupid law that was railroaded into existence in the first issue.
We have a winner!
It doesn't make sense in the context of the comic as Nitro is responsible for the killings and given the power levels involved it's highly unlikely that properly deputizing the heroes will put a measureable stop to casualties.
On a larger scale it's part of a recently popular gimmick of taking a single aspect of superhero universes and suddenly and locally applying real world logic to it. When Moore did it in Watchmen, he let it play out in full, considering all the relevant implications. When Bendis used it in Daredevil he at least had enough room to cover some of the bases. Meltzers' sudden zoom on mindwipes in Identity Crisis, the sudden concern with supervillain life in Sacrifice/Wonder Woman and now Civil War are unfortunately not of that caliber. They're just taking a convention of the genre, declare it (temporarily) null and void and expect to be patted on the back for how clever they are.
I didn't expect Marvel to really explore both sides of the issue--Marvel has had an editorial position on Registration Acts (IE: they are bad) for decades now.
But this ended up being even less subtle than I expected.
Geez, imagine what it'd have been like if they'd decided to make it black-and-white and not bother to give any time to the arguments of the Evil Pro-Registration Side?
Good point, although that rather depends on Marvel's editors paying attention, and nothing thus for in CW suggests that they are.
Given that Spidey's eyes are shown properly colored in a panel featuring almost the exact same pose and angle 3 pages earlier, the colorist would have to be getting pretty lazy as well. Also, close examination reveals the masked mystery man has far more wrinkles around his eyes than Parker does in the aforementioned similar panel, so McNiven would have to be seriously out of the loop as well.
Why would Punisher be wearing the mask if it is indeed him? I'm thinking the explanation will be something to do with wanting to maintain a lower profile after his recent jail breakout with Matt Murdock or possibly to avoid attracting too much attention while he starts stockpiling exotic weapons to take on the supervillains that the heroes aren't fighting. And as for the question as to why he'd be in a fire escape, it's not like he's never done rooftop surveillance or sniping before.
So why hasn't Stark passed Fauxlnir hammers out to everyone on his side?
I mean, if it's just a technological artifact...
Well at least we have proof now that Superboy Prime's retcon-punches ARE truly powerful!
I think Millar is really siding with Iron Man in this and that the evil the pro-reg side does is a kind of red herring.
Hasn't Millar said in interviews that he thinks most real world people would side with the Pro-Reg side? That may be why the Pro-Regs have been in Evil TurboDrive for the whole story, some strange feeling that since their position is the more "realistic" one, extraordinary measures are required to discredit it.
u
Ha! While reading this, I suddenly got the image of Brother Voodoo "waking up" Goliath and fighting side-by-side with him! :)
I enjoyed the review. I have not picked up one issue and really don't feel like I've missed a thing.
Y'know, if the anti-registration side, which is to say the underground, fugitive side, had teamed up with established villains, that would have made perfect sense, in that they have a shared interest in fighting the established power. (Not that teaming up with Bullseye EVER makes sense, since, as Chris Sims pointed out, that guy kills nuns, but still...)
The PRO-registration side turning to psychotic killers, when they have unlimited resources and the support of the government at their disposal, makes no sense whatsovever, except to establish one side, and one side only, as willing to kill to make their point.
Just terrible. Thanks for the heads up Jake.
Somewhere in another series, hasn't Thing denounced both sides abandoning the country?
Well, I like this "Civil War/Miller/Quesada" universe more than the old one.
Making Reed Richards a dick makes him a hell of a lot more interesting. FF haven't been relevant since the 60s, and this spices them up. And while a Thor that kills people may not be in line with the 20-year-old "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe," it makes him more in line with the original Norse god, Thor... who had no concept of mercy or pity...
...and that makes him more interesting to me...
Here's the problem with Reed Richards.
In Waid's Fantastic Four, Reed Richards locks Doom AND HIMSELF in a prison plane, just to protect his family. Reed is smart, but he's also a good person , and would do anything for his family. He's sort of what Superman would be as a scientist. It's in his nature to help other people and be a hero.
The Reed Richards here dosen't seem to care about his family. Nor does he seem to want to help people. Reed Richards would realize that creating a Thor clone would be morally wrong. He might be intrested, but he'd know it wasn't right. The "end justifies the means" Reed we are seeing here is more in line with the philosophy of Doctor Doom.
And when the heroes start acting like their villains, there's always something messed up going on. I hope Doom catches onto this. I'm fairly convinced that Iron Man (who is also, essentially, a good person who wants to help people with technology) and Mr. Fantastic are both being mind-controlled by the Sublime...if they were not already replaced by Space Phantoms.
The stupid thing is, all clone-Thor does is use the hammer. So why bother to make a clone of Thor just to hold the tech-thingy? Why not just strap the hammer to the Iron Man armor and kill Goliath yourself?
I was upset when they killed Sue Dibney. I was upset when they killed Blue Beetle and Booster. But now they've really crossed the line. I rather enjoyed Identity Crises and Infinite Crises wasn't so bad, but what Marvel is perpetrating here, is just sickening. Waaaay back in the '70's boys and girls, when you had to go to the drugstore to get comics, is when I bought my first Thor, with art by John Buscema and I was hooked. I liked Avengers and X-men and Conan, but I always had a soft spot for Thor for some reason. Cripes, I learned the runic alphabet and read the Prose Edda in college because of a comic book...how crazy is that! And now they've ruined it all. I am depressed.
Remember back when you'd write something about Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen and I'd read it? And then I'd read the two or three comments your work generated? Those were the days! FORTY NINE COMMENTS!!!!Man you've gone commercial, hit the big time, I'll likely see you punditacifatating on CNN next, oh well, least I can say I read you then. So I have only read Civil War at my local book store, since I too am unable to afford or justify the $5.50 (Canadian eh?) cover price.Whatever the clues are regarding the balaclava man, Punisher Spidey, J Jonah Jameson, I bet it'll turn out to be someone like Ned Leeds, or Ned Beatty. Seems we've travelled this road before.Craig
I just want to point out that Clone Thor isn't actually weilding the *real* Mjolnir, but rather some Reed-tech, as you can see in one of the panels after the battle. And if you're reading Fantastic Four, you'll know that the real Donald Blake has recovered the real Mjolnir and will probably make an appearance as real Thor before the end of CW.
You know what's funny?
Something tells me that, as someone who is avoiding mega-crossovers and who didn't buy Civil War # 4, that the actual book is much worse than people describing it.
Have I missed some sort of continuity that would explain how Elektra can be in the same room as Bullseye without the two of them at each other's throats? Because that made zero sense to me.
Ron, that's Lady Deathstrike, not Elektra.
I'm going to leap in the other direction here and defend Millar. Yes, his characterisation is as thin and his dialogue as cheesy as yer average Hollywood actioner, his use of subtext heavyhanded (but, like in the movie biz, it's the thin, cheesy, actioners that keep the industry afloat). He seems more concerned with his characters acting consistently with his own vision of them than established continuity. A lot of people will see this as the reason to dislike this story, whereas I tend to fall into the other camp. I think it's all we can/should expect of any artist. I wouldn't criticise a book by Keith Giffen and Marc DeMatteis harshly for ignoring previous continuity for their own comedic purposes, so I won't to Mark Millar for doing something similar for melodramatic purposes.
I think it might be fairer to judge the book instead by the standards you would use to judge a Hollywood blockbuster, rather than the latest installment in the megafiction that is the forty three years of the Marvel Universe. I've always had a sense that this is the level Millar is aiming for. Ultimately I think he sees himself as competing with Shane Black rather than Geoff Johns.
The really annoying thing for me is that Millar had such a good run on Wolverine that I was expecting great things. Love it or hate it, Enemy of the State/Agent of Shield at least made sense.
Even small details don't make any sense - Sue leave the kids with Reed? Surely she should have sent them to stay with the Inhuman as per the usual drill.
Mark, you bring up a point I was discussing as a possible follow up post. Would this story be bad if it took place with characters who didn't have long standing continuity? For example, if this same story were taking place in Invincible, would it be as bad? Some of the weaknesses would remain (one-dimensional characters), but I don't think it would be perceived as badly because we couldn't point specifically to actions and say, "Rexplode would never do that! He has 40 years of specifically not doing that!"
But it's NOT a movie, and it NOT about completely different characters. If it was, Civil War would be a lot worse!
For example, the last page reveals of issues 2, 3, and 4 would COMPLETELY meaningless.
"Hey Spider-Dude just unmasked and a guy with a mustache fainted."
"Hey, a guy with a hammer showed up. Who's he?"
"Hey, it's a room with a bunch of people who are not very nice."
kelvingreen : in answer to your first post, I believe Sue didn't leave in issue #1 because Johnny was in the hospital. I agree that Spidey should have already switched sides long ago, but he hasn't really been himself since Bendis and JMS started fucking with him. Millar is arguably writing him in character given his recent history. (And Millar can write a good Spidey, just see MK Spider-Man #1-12!)
anonymous : Sue probably didn't leave the kids with the Inhumans either because 1) the Inhumans are having touble of their own (see : Son of M) and/or b) because the kids aren't actually in danger with Reed. Her problems with him aren't about his parenting skills (any more than usual), they're with his politics.
While Civil War hasn't been Millar's strongest work, I don't think he's been fucking with Marvel's icons any worse than any good writer has over the years (and no cries of "but *he's* not a good writer!", please). Morrison's New X-Men run is an excellent case in point, not only for the way it shook things up, but also because it was thoughtfully shallow, flashy and too cool just like Civil War.
I think what's really hamstringing Millar is that he's unable to tell a lot of the story because he's gotta leave some stuff for JMS to write in Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, and for all the other writers with their various tangental crossovers and miniseries. And I don't think that was his decision to make. Even despite those restrictions, and others that have been mentioned above, I think he's telling a pretty decent story.
I'd even go so far to say that this is probably one of the best massive cross-over events that Marvel has ever produced. It's certainly the most coherent.
Well, after Secret Wars II maybe.
But, Steven, if Invincible revealed his true identity, there's a history of his trying to keep it secret so it would be meaningful without crapping on 40 years of continuity. Likewise, you could have his dad show up at the end of issue 3 for the "holy crap" factor, then reveal it was a clone. Also, a room full of supervillains is a room full of supervillains.
So, yes, if they were all new characters, it wouldn't be as good, but if they were characters with only a few years of story behind them, I think it would be much better.
And in regards to what you're saying, shortfatsteve, I think you make a good point about Millar writing these characters the way they've been written in their own books lately (a point I've largely missed since I don't read so many of the mainstream Marvel books anymore). The question I raised in the post then becomes even more relevant: Is this the Marvel Quesada thinks the masses want?
I'm inclined to think it is.
The pro-registration side has the TWO FOREMOST EXPERTS ON SHRINKING IN THE ENTIRE WORLD and they can't
reduce Goliath to normal?
Also, isn't Thing going to get more than a little angry that one of Reed's creations killed Bill Foster (Goliath)?
Good points, all. Saturday we'll be posting simul-reviews over on LOD.
Let me say first that I'm a fan of Millar's. I thought his version of Stark in the Ultimates was brilliant. Let me also add that I am no continutiy Luddite (yeah, I know, it's not a metaphor that really makes sense, but it's late). I've been reading Iron Man since the first JR Jr./Layton run, and I've dropped the book on more than one occasion (O'Neill's run and Teen Tony, the prime examples). But when I dropped them it was with no rending of garments over how my character was being raped. I know this is how things work, and at times storylines will head where I don't think they should. I shrug, say 'so what' and drop it 'til it looks interesting again.
All that said, I cannot for the life of me fathom how any writer or editor could possibly believe any reader would see Iron Man in CW as a sympathetic character. And nearly everything he's doing goes against EVERY portrayal of him in the past (and I won't go into detail, I'm not sure that many people here really want to have to suffer through that).
The change is so sudden and so drastic and so without any precedent that it makes me wonder more about the editorial decisions that may lie behind deciding to make the character so abhorrent. Frankly, over the past couple of years IM seems to have become horribly convoluted, with the delays from Ellis' run, the delayed continuity in the New Avengers book... did the Extremis storyline even happen in continuity at this point? Has anyone followed it up at all? And now in CW every issue that comes out makes an off-handed theory (IM caused Nitro to explode to start this whole thing) seem more and more likely.
Seriously... who the hell is this character anymore?
As was said above, this series is supposedly drawing in the casual reader, people who aren't normally following these characters, and this is the Iron Man they're seeing. And two years from now, they're going to be asked to pay money to see a movie about this guy?
It's not the drastic shift, for me, so much as the total lack of coherence to any of it, to his entire character, at this moment. And short of saying, "oh, that darn Space Phantom, we should've known!" I don't know how you get out of this.
Thanks for the review; I was recommended here by Howling Curmudgeons, and my comments there indicate how I happened not to notice exactly how bad this comic is.
Incidentally, "Chimpy McHitlerburton" was coined by a right-wing blogger and I have never seen it used seriously by any left-wing blogger. I've never seen "Bu$Hitler" anywhere.
Well,I haven't read all the comments but, and it's possible you mean just within Civil War itself, but thing has made it pretty clear where he stands in FF.
-Socraticsilence
p.s. Can we start taking bets on who gets offed in the Parker extended family, that makes Peter crossover and join the rebellion?
Also, if Miller wants it to be complex, they probably shouldn;t have had Luke Cage go all Malcolm X in the Issue of Avengers where they come for him. Or alternatively, have the hold outs start dropping bodies like a terrorist grouop (assasinations and the like) after all they'd kinda have to do that what with them fighting Shield, Stark, Clone Thor, the Army, etc.
--Socraticsilence
Incidentally, "Chimpy McHitlerburton" was coined by a right-wing blogger and I have never seen it used seriously by any left-wing blogger.
Right, never meant to suggest otherwise.
As much as Reed may have sometimes been portrayed as a cold, unemotional jerk in the past, he's also always been shown to have a moral compass. It seems very strange for him not to be upset by what happened with the Thor clone, given that this is the same guy *who freaking refused to kill Galactus*.
I have to disagree with some of your analysis on the characters.
Spider-Man: Wearing completely new costume, revealing secret identity, living in penthouse apartment, operating as part of a team and taking orders from Iron Man
How exactly are the new costume or the secret identity out of character? Furthermore, I believe I'm right in saying he hasn't been shown living in the Avengers tower in this mini, so that's a non-issue. He'll probably be out by the end anyway.
As for being on a team, when has Spider-Man NOT been teaming up with people. For all the claims that he is a loner, he works with others often.
Captain America: Endangering the lives of his troops, abandoning his country, paranoid, delusions of grandeur.
Cap came from World War 2, where he would fight alongside other troops, all endangering their lives. Also, abandoning his country? I'd argue he is fighting FOR his country. Is it really out of character for Cap to fight for what he believes to be right?
Reed Richards: Emotionless, oblivious to his wife's concerns, lying to Sue.
IMO, Reed has always been portrayed as a man who gets lost in his work. Also, how exactly is he emotionless? We haven't seen his reaction.
Sue Richards: Walking out on her husband and kids to join anti-government rebellion.
She doesn't believe she can stand by him on a side she disagrees with. She also realises that she can't protect her kids in an underground resistance.
Thing: Quiet (Has he said a word this series?), keeping his emotions bottled up, blindly following orders.
In issue three, he tells Changeling he doesn't want to fight them. He will also be gone by the next issue of CW, so that is hardly blindly following orders.
Thor: Cloned sociopath willing to kill his friends for the fun of it.
Is it out of character when it isn't truly him?
Iron Man: Total asshole willing to imprison or kill his best friend to make a point.
Iron Man believes in accountability and responsibility for heroes. He's always been someone who isn't the most subtle in pushing for what he believes in. Is upholding the law really "to make a point"?
And, when was he willing to kill Cap? He wanted to talk, Cap sucker punched him. He took him down, Cap got back up. He then used a stun device, which may have been up straight away after Cap scrambled his suit.
All the points I made were in relation to how the characters differ from what a someone who isn't a regular reader would expect. So while Spidey's costume may not be a character issue, he looks like a completely different character from the classic look the average person expects when they think "Spider-Man."
You're making excuses for bad characterization because you don't want it to be bad. To put it another way, you're not really showing that they're being portrayed in character, just that their portrayals aren't entirely out of character... just 90-95%.
Cap is a fugitive who is fighting United States government soldiers. He's adhering to an ideal, but nonetheless is fighting against his country rather than using his iconic status to force debate over the issue and resolve it in a mutually agreeable democratic solution. Plus there are the rumors he'll be moving to Canada, but those are just rumors at this point.
Reed's reaction to Thor killing Goliath was to tinker with Thor's brain. He's more concerned with sniffing out Peter Parker's potential betrayal than mourning at the funeral.
Thing may leave by I'm not reviewing the next issue, am I?
Is it out of character when it isn't truly [Thor]?
He is being sold to us as the new Thor up to this point. That may change, but until then people who like Thor and picked up this book because they heard Thor was in it will be disappointed.
True, Iron Man is upholding the law, but I find it hard to see how you see what he's doing as being in character. There is a difference between lack of subtlty and blatant disregard for your friends to such a degree that you're willing to use Bullseye, Lady Deathstrike, Taskmaster, and the others to accoplish your goal.
And, when was he willing to kill Cap?
I was using hyperbole to describe the punch that nearly decapitated Cap in issue #3. The way things were escalating, it's hard to argue, "Tony was in total control and things weren't going to get out of hand," which they did, just Cap wasn't the victim.
For that matter, considering how well "Operation Clone the God of Thunder" went, you'd think he would pause for half a second before puting the supervillain thing into effect.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this before, I couldn't read through all 70 posts, but if Tony only had his Extremis armor for a few months comic time, how was that toy Sharpe's son's favorite "since he was three years old"? His picture shows him at least seven or eight.
I know this is more of a storyline thing, but I just wondered if anyone else has any thoughts on that.
I've been saying from the beginning this story has been one-sided and it looks like it's becoming more so.
And if Punisher saves Spidey's ass, Ennis will laugh his ass off.
Regarding Cap's stance in this, he was attacked before the law even went into effect. I don't see how he could start a debate when 'capekillers' are constantly shooting at him?
I have said this many times on many sites, and there's a lot here I agree with, but now the Civil War is through, allow me to put in my two cents on this one. As the # 1 Tigra fan and lover of all Tigra fans, I want to say just exactly this:
FUCK YOU, MILLAR!!!
FUCK YOU, MARVEL!!!
FUCK YOU, QUESADA!!!
FUCK YOU, TOM BREEVORT!!!
FUCK YOU, EVERYONE WHO MADE CIVIL WAR!!!
Thank you SO motherfucking much for making my favorite heroine and comic book character a sneak and a spy, something her real self isn't at all! Thank you for making her a liar to friends, thank you for causing quite a few of her fans(my self not included)to no longer be her fans, and thank you for doing similar things to many characters (Iron Man, Mister Fantastic, Ms. Marvel, the list goes on)who I and many also liked and look what you did to them!
Oh, yeah, and Millar, did I mention that you PROMISED both sides would get an equal look of good, and reputation, and then seemed to do this until now, when you did what you did from this time on!!! And I'm betting you planned it the whole goddamn time!
Not to mention, Millar, how you said you "demonized them a little even though they got the better rep" when many, understandably, came at you angry about this and demanded an explanation! LIAR!!! BACKSTABBER!!! PROMISE BREAKER!!!!
I hope your sorry ass gets blasted to pieces by a come out of the comic Iron Man!
And you, Quesada, I hope TIgra gets the same out of the comic and tears you apart and butchers you like the fat, disgusting pig that you are!!!
I will say it one more time...for the butchering of my Tigra and the butchering of so many other goods...not to mention false brain messages I get in bed now thanks to all this...FUCK YOU, MARVEL!!!! GO TO HELL!!! I HOPE YOU ALL GO BANKRUPT FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS!!!
YOU DESERVE IT, YOU ASSHOLES!!!!!
And, for all of you who'd agree with me on these facts and more? Thank you for supporting. I hope Millar gets drawn and quartered... while Quesada gets run over by the fucking C-Train like his character was in the Daredevil movie. I now need to go and get a drink of water and breathe deep for a while.
Oh, and one more thing I forgot to add, the making of Civil War, in so many ways, blew a hole open in a lot of fun I was having before it got know to me!! Just like it blew a hole in the fun Marvel was and the amount of fans the pro reggers had before this bullshit of Civil War happened!!! And I am NOT going to just mention Millar or Quesada as "FUCK YOU!!!" targets at all. No...I am also going to mention everyone who played a part in Civil War and the making of it. My words go as this is now...
FUCK YOU, BENDIS!!!
FUCK YOU, TOM BREEVORT!!!
FUCK YOU, STEVE MCNIVEN!!!
FUCK YOU, EVERYONE AT MARVEL WHO MADE CIVIL WAR EXIST!!!
You retarded fags need to go piss up a rope and be vivisected like the backstabbing promise breakers you are!!! You corrupted Iron Man, you corrupted Ms Marvel, you corrupted Tigra, you corrupted Mr Fantastic, you portrayed Cap as an arrogant fool and led him to his death, and you made Invisible Woman look like a bad mother after she broke up with her husband!!!! I cannot describe how much I want the Punisher to come out of Civil War # 5 and do the same thing to your sorry asses that he did to Jack and Jester in that comic book! THANKS FOR DOING ALL THIS AND DESTROYING FUN I WAS HAVING IN SO MANY AREAS BEFORE!!!! I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU, AND MAY YOU BE ALL CASTRATED, DROWNED IN CUNT JUICE AND BIH AFTER YOUR WELL DESERVED DEATHS!!! GDIAF, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!! GO TO HELL!!!!! BE CHOPPED UP!!! I HOPE ANY FAMILY YOU HAVE BITE THE BIG ONE JUST SO YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU DESERVE!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT MUCH, AND SO DO SO MANY FANS YOU RUINED MARVEL FOR!
I'm confused at what the difference is between showing that a character isn't out of character and proving that they're in character. I'm even more confused at this stuff coming from blogs whose stock in trade it is to show how crazy these characters are. I could probably use this very blog to build a case for how it's out of character for Sue to be more involved in this beyond baking some cookies for the boys, and how, as a good wife, she'd never leave Reed. After all, cloning a god has to be water under the bridge after all of the crap she's put with.
Something worth considering is the current Skrull invasion storyline Marvel is running, which opens the door to justify every instance of poor characterization as being a deliberate clue that X character has secretly been a skrull for years.
Brilliant plotting or lazy writing? YOU make the call!
This article references how Hank Pym doesn't react quite the way he should have, all things considered, and now we know for sure that Hank is (and likely has been for quite some time) a Skrull. How many others will be definitely identified as impostors before the storyline ends?
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